The Nitty Gritty: The Grinder

As I've talked about before, I've chosen to grind. Robin wants to carry her whole pieces away and will resource guard them from me; Luna gulps any and everything... I don't have a lot of time in the mornings to let them work on their breakfasts. And now, with Andre, it's even more important for him.

Just a quick update on him, we decided that even though he does not have EPI, he lives with many of the same complications, so we will feed him with that in mind. He already takes a plant-based enzyme (EPI dogs generally get a porcine based enzyme) and we are adding better probiotics and maintaining the lowest bone content we can get away with, as well as making it easily digestible. Grinding helps us control the bone content, gives him a head start on the digestion, and makes adding in his various supplements easier. So far so good. A separate post on that forthcoming.

So grinders!

Entry level

I would think it would go without saying that using a manual grinder is a nightmare. But I've seen an awful lot of people who want to try...

The $150-200 starter grinder that most folks start out with can usually handle chicken bones, some can handle rabbit. Turkey bones, however, or very hard  and very dense. I don't suggest putting those in these smaller units...

For whatever reason, I did not buy the usual grinder that most raw feeder tout, the Tasin TS108. You can read more about that grinder and a comparison of the pricier Weston #12 at http://catinfo.org. 

Instead, I bought the STX Turboforce 3000. 

 

The great thing about the STX is the warranty. Many grinders a this price point void the warranty if they are used to grind bones. STX, though, will repair or replace for any reason whatsoever for 1 year. That includes being an idiot and putting turkey bones down the chute. Not too long after I got it, I tried to grind turkey wings and the unit just died. It made horrible noises. I completely killed it. The company took it back, fixed it, and then sent it back to me, followed by a phone call giving me tips for using it to grind bones. They were prompt and true to their word. I was very pleased with them and the grinder. It has held up for many hundreds of pounds of chicken leg quarters and it is still kicking.

Pros: 

Affordable

Nice size-- easy to store

Fairly easy to clean

Awesome warranty and customer service

It's a workhorse

Has a reverse button if things get stuck

Fine for 1-2 dogs

Cons:

Chicken is about the extent of what it can handle

Chute is small, about 2" so you have to cut pieces pretty small; I cut leg quarters into 3-5 pieces. Even thighs need to be cut into 2 pieces, usually.

Too slow-going for more than 2 dogs

Bigger and Better?

I've been buying a lot of pre ground food, but I'm ready to go back to grinding my own for at least some of their meals. I'm trying to save money and I'd love to have a grinder that can handle turkey for Andre's food. Also, one of the main reasons I don't like to grind is how much time it sucks out of my life grinding for this many dogs. When it was just River and Robin, it was fine. But add Luna to the mix and it almost doubled my work. Not to mention adding Dre...

I'm pretty sure I'll be going with a Weston #22. 

It's commercial grade, has a nearly three inch chute, and a more powerful motor. Reports are that it's pretty quiet. I've found a few reports of it handling turkey, mainly necks. 

Best of all, I just got email confirmation from the company that their #22 and #32 models are rated for poultry bones, meaning it will not void the warranty. Their response was really prompt, too. I emailed late yesterday evening, and there was a response at 7 this morning.

I'm waiting to hear from our usual meat supplier about the cost for ground turkey legs by themselves  and for bone-in whole pieces to make sure it's worth spending the money and the TIME before I take the plunge.

Pros:

Power--meaning harder bones  and faster grind time

Bigger chute, so less chopping

Stainless steel making it easier to wash

Warranty and customer service

Might even make feeding raw to the cats worthwhile...

Cons:

Price-- runs around $550, though I may have found it cheaper; but if I can make Dre's food, it will pay for itself quickly. 

Size-- it will have to stay out or on my rolling cart all the time. It's super heavy. 

I'll probably make a decision today or tomorrow. And then I'll post about the grinding process and other equipment...

Food sensitivities: Why are they so complicated?

You all already know my conundrum.

Andre only eats turkey Bravo and it's god awfully expensive.

Thing is, EVERY time I try to change up his food AT ALL, he has an episode. Some episodes are worse than others-- vomiting, listlessness, etc. Lately, they are more of the occasional vomiting of bile and trying to eat inappropriate things. Like the other dogs' poop.

Lately, we've been trying to transition over to a blend that is turkey drumsticks (ground) and pork heart and liver. After several days, we saw the same things we were seeing when we hoped it was cottage cheese or lack of probiotics. It's nothing drastic. He still seems happy and healthy (not the scary listlessness) and he does a lot of this:

It's just really frustrating. And strangest of all, his poop is almost always perfect. So I have to base everything I'm doing on how desperately he's eating poop and leaves.

I'm going to take 2 approaches. One is to move much more slowly-- replace 2 ounces at a time, and spend several DAYS at each level instead of several meals. I will also be adding more veggies. Bravo includes broccoli, yams, and green beans. And I think the new blend is bonier than Bravo (it's also got too much liver to be his sole food source, but I'd be happy if I could get it to where it makes up half his meals.

We don't tend to add many veggies. A nice blend of organ meats and a variety of proteins takes care of most of their veggies, and my girls tend to do better with less vegetable fiber in their diets.

And the 3rd approach, for later, will be to start trying beef.

I would LOVE to hear from others who have tried to broaden a sensitive dog's culinary horizons. What helped and didn't, where did you make compromises?

This is simply crazy.

Andre update: Little critters

I'm amazed at the power of probiotics over and over again.

Somebody seems to be feeling better. 

No more cottage cheese. Added probiotics. He has regulated and isn't constantly trying to eat poop and leaves. 

I can't believe I haven't gone back to probiotics while changing up his food. I used to do that always. Too many irons in the fire these days...

Guess I'll go back to testing new foods!

Obey the probiotics: how to make your own yogurt

Well, folks. We may have a couple of setbacks.

On the one hand, Andre seemed to handle turkey necks and drumstick meat quite well. Then we took a few days' break and tried a blend of ground drumsticks, pork hearts and pork liver. He did ok with this, too, if slightly gassy. We only did this for a few days.

First issue is that unenhanced turkey is hard to get, so DIY will be tougher, but the blend is cheaper than Bravo.

Now, he's been slightly off, has lost a couple of pounds, I think, and has started trying to eat the other dogs' poop again. It's been many months since that was a problem. One change that might be to blame is that I've been out of yogurt quite a bit the last month, so he's had a lot of cottage cheese in his kongs. The only probiotic that he currently gets is the small amount in Missing Link. I'm hoping that the cottage cheese and/or the lack of probiotic is the problem. Until I can get some keffir, he will get more yogurt in his kongs and a powder probiotic-- we're giving 21st Century a shot (from Petsmart).

In the meantime, I thought now would be a good time for yogurt making instructions. With 4 dogs who get frozen kongs several days a week, and humans who like to cook Indian food, making your own yogurt is super economical. It also gives you lots of control over the texture, consistency, and sourcing of your milk. 

1. Equipment

We use a yogurt maker. It's not required, but it's not expensive and makes life a little easier. It pays for itself pretty quickly. This is a Eurocuisine model with a timer. It was maybe $30 or less and simplifies the final step of the process. It came with 7 little 6oz cups, but one big bowl of plain makes more sense for us. This model is one big open space, so you're only limited to the size that will fit under the lid. We use a 7 cup glass Pyrex container.

2. Cleaning

First things first: sterilize your container. Yes, that poor kettle was left on the stove a little too long one afternoon... And this is in our old house, so those of you who know me will know these are old pics. Anyway, I boil a kettle full of water...

...and pour it into the container. It can sit there sterilizing while I get the rest of it going.

3. Ingredients

For this batch, I have 42 ounces of organic 2%. It's ultrapasteurized, and I hear that makes for lesser yogurt. I haven't noticed, but I hope to try with local milk at some point. Also, full fat is going to be automatically creamier, but since this batch will be used for all of us in the house, I don't want the full fat. You will also need some plain yogurt as a starter culture. If I have some of my yogurt, I use that, but I just buy a single small container of plain at the store to get started.

4. The heat

I bring the water to 185 degrees-- this sterilizes the milk one more time and apparently does something to break down the whey. It's unnecessary (we never did this when I was a kid and made yogurt), but I think it probably speeds up the process and supposedly makes for creamier yogurt.

I like to keep it at 185 for 10 minutes. I didn't always do this, so obviously it's unnecessary. I keep it on medium high until I hit 180 and then turned it to low for the next 10 minutes. Some folks use a double boiler, some keep it at 180-185 for 30 minutes. I just do 10 minutes and I definitely noticed an improvement in the results- firmer yogurt with less whey.

5. The cool down

You can next turn off the heat and wait for it to go down to below 120 degrees... Or you can put it in a nice bath to speed up the process. I've always done the ice bath. I'm impatient that way.

6. The culture

While the milk was heating, I put 5-6 ounces of plain yogurt into my measuring container. Use any plain yogurt or you can buy starters at most health food stores.

Now that the milk is cool, pour some of that milk into the measuring cup with your starter and whisk lightly. 

Then pour it back into the warm milk and stir it lightly. 

7. The wait

Empty the sterilizing bowl, place it in the machine, and pour up the milk.

For full fat milk, I usually set it for 8-10 hours. This is 2%, so I'm giving it 11-12 hours. After it's done, chill it. If it's still not thick enough, it can be strained in a cheese cloth or in a colander lined with coffee filters. Save the whey, though-- it makes a great substitute for buttermilk in baking and can be used to add extra protein to smoothies, especially those that you'd rather not use yogurt in. 

You can also reserve a cup of this yogurt for your next batch. :)

If you don't want to spring for a machine, just know that the important thing is to keep it around 110degrees while it's culturing. Some folks use water baths in crock pots or keeping it in thermal containers, in warm ovens. Whatever works for you. For the $20-$30 the machine costs, it was worth not having to deal with that stuff. 

A dog, a grinder, a plan

Apologies for abandoning the blog. Life's been a little nutty. Vacation, hypothyroid, moving... Just... a lot.

When we all try very hard, these three can be such
patient little customers. They want to know, though,
why I'm taking pictures and not finishing dinner. 

My next post was going to be about equipment, and I'm actually glad I've held off. We are probably going back to grinding at least some of the meals. I'd love to get out of debt, and while recently time had been more valuable than money, that's changing. :) I got a great deal on buying 100lbs of a pre-made grind (beef trim, liver and tripe with chicken frames, hearts and liver) for $1.65/lb. I can use this for morning meals when I'm in a hurry. Our evening meals can be chicken thighs and other organs, hearts and gizzards. This should get us to around $1.30/lb. If I go back to chicken leg quarters, I can get it closer to ~$1.10/lb if I need to cut costs even further.

And Andre's Bravo is now $3/lb, even when I buy with a case discount, so I'm revisiting the prospect of making his food. Even a mid-range home grinder will not handle turkey, so we'll have to purchase a commercial grinder to do that, and I'll go through our decision process on that. I may get one anyway to up the speed on processing day-- if I can make Andre's food by buying lots of Thanksgiving turkeys and grinding them myself, it will pay for itself quickly. If I use it to do a lot of grinding with the chicken thighs/legs, it will pay for itself, too, just less quickly. I love the grinder we have and it was perfectly reasonable when I was grinding for 2 dogs. Three or even four dogs, and using a grinder that small and slow, means I never want to do it and it's easier for me to be lazy.

We've also discovered that Luna has some thyroid issues, and I am still working out what I need to be doing for her dietarily-- will post on that sometime soon, too.

Let me begin by saying that Andre is 60+lbs-- up from a low of 41 or 42. He's energetic, happy, and he's had only mild flare-ups in recent months. Nothing major at all. And he starts intermediate obedience classes in January. We've done his basics at home, but it's time for him to work around new people and dogs. And learn not to obsess over toys.

Park is Hell. All those tennis balls
behind the fence...

He couldn't handle the salmon oil for his omegas, so he gets Missing Link vegetarian formula, which is primarily flaxseed plus a little kelp. He's tolerating that very, very well.

He also can tolerate coconut oil well.

My first step here is to see if Andre can handle grocery store turkey, including dark meat. I bought some ground turkey necks from our supplier and a tray of turkey drumsticks. Both meals on Sunday and Monday morning, he had 2 ounces of his 10 replaced with 25% necks and 75% drumstick meat cut up with poultry shears. Tonight he got 4 ounces replaced; tomorrow morning I'll give him a break and do all Bravo. If we can get to 50-75% of his meals homemade, we'll be in great shape. I'll need to add in some veggies.

Next step will be to try some different (not chicken) proteins. Turkey livers/hearts/gizzards are hard to find in bulk. So I'll try beef and pork hearts and livers, kidneys, sweetbreads and see if he can handle the organ meats from them. Our supplier also makes a turkey drumstick/pork liver blend at $2/lb that we could perhaps try for his morning meals.

We can't sustainably pay these prices for Andre's food if it's going to stay more than twice as much as the others'. That said, it's still cheaper and easier than having him constantly having problems, having surgical procedures, constantly trying new foods... We'll keep going til we find something more workable. Hopefully that will be soon...

Andre update: Changing it up

Now, while I think that I will eventually need to address the B12 issue, the fact remains that Dre is gaining weight. That's right. Big Guy is up to 54lbs. That's from an all-time low of 41 after surgery. I think he's looking pretty good.

Seeing ribs on my bullies with their short coats, super muscle tone, and athletic builds is one thing; seeing them on a longer short-coat like Dre is another. We could also see his hip bones at one point. He wasn't even fun to snuggle with. Now you can see some tuck, but it's not overly tight. I'm pretty happy with his body condition right now.

That said, I wanted to document what we've done this week that's different.

On Wednesday, he threw up twice. I decided that we might need stronger probiotics than the yogurt and whatever is in the Missing Link. So we're adding kefir to his diet. Kefir is like a cousin to yogurt, but it's much more potent in terms of its probiotic qualities. If this continues to seem useful, I'll take up an offer from a friend to get some of her kefir grains to culture my own. We usually make our own yogurt, but this is a much simpler process.

We have also been substituting a few ounces of turkey with a packet of ground lamb that I picked up last week at the abattoir. So far so good. The turkey Bravo that he's been eating has gone up in price (as of today) to about $2.75/lb. when it costs more to feed one of the dogs than one of the humans, it's time to reevaluate. If it's what we need to do, we will. But I think it's time to start trying out some other things. I'd like to try slowly adding some heart, both beef and chicken, maybe gizzards, and chicken frames, particularly the chicken blend I buy at the farmers market, as it looks to be very low fat. 

His problems seemed to arise when given salmon oil or chicken legs-- fatty cuts of chicken. He did great on chicken breast only. So while hearts can be very rich for some dogs, they are also lean, packed with vitamins, and frankly... cheap. I'd love to reach a point where I can substitute maybe half his turkey with other things, both for the variety and the cost savings.

Andre update: test results

So Big Dre got his test results back today. 

He does not have EPI and his folate levels are good. His cobalamin (B12) is "low normal." ETa: B12 deficiencies seem to manifest in the form of GI trouble or it is a symptom of GI trouble, I'm not entirely clear. But this seems unsurprising all the way around. 

So the good news is that he does not have a disease that would have required us to incubate porcine pancreas on every bite of his food. 

The bad news is that we still aren't sure exactly what IS wrong with him...

Except that he is missing the part of his small intestines that normally absorbs B12. The lab where his tests were run at Texas A&M (yay Aggies? Oh. That felt weird...) recommends B12 supplementation for low normal results. I saw this after speaking to the vet. We left it at continuing to watch and see. He's not losing weight so that's good. I started him on the vegetarian Missing Link to get his omegas and probiotics. We'll see if he tolerates that better than the salmon oil. 

But I will be speaking to the vet more about B12 supps. The thing is, although it is water soluble and so overdose is pretty impossible, oral supplements don't work all that well. I could give them to him and see if he's one of the lucky ones that they do work for, but if that part of his intestine is gone, then what's the point? Injections work better, I'm told. The body has a limited store of B12 and if he's not absorbing it, he's using what he has and not replenishing it and, well, it's kind of important. 

Anyone out there with experience on this sort of thing, your input is welcome. Otherwise, I'll update when I know more and as we continue with the Missing Link. 

The Nitty Gritty: Supplements

Don't get scared. I don't use all of those all the time.

Ideally, if you can offer lots and lots of variety, you probably won't have to worry too much about supplementation. But I'm always a little worried that I'm not giving them everything, and sometimes they need a little boost here and there for various reasons. Here is Mary Strauss's DogAware page on supplements for dogs.

**One quick note-- when buying supplements designed for humans, read the ingredients carefully. Many tablets or caplets will contain things like xylitol and other artificial sweeteners that may be toxic for your dog. Always be aware of what you're giving them, especially when they are not specifically designed for dogs.**

Fish Oil
Minimally, when feeding a raw diet, you'll want to make sure that they're getting the right Omega 3s and 6s. These fatty acids support skin and coat, eye health and brain development in young puppies, immune system health, decreased inflammation, and lots of other things. Fish body oils have these omegas in the right ratios and are a very bioavailable way for dogs to receive these nutrients. We give capsules of human grade Alaskan salmon oil a few times a week in addition to one meal a week where I take the lowest sodium cans of salmon and mackerel and split a single can of each between the 3 girls. I make up the rest of the meal with cottage cheese, eggs, and sometimes yogurt, keffir, or vegetables.

If you're wanting to feed raw fish, there are some that can be fed, but salmon and trout carry the potential for a fatal disease, so we just stick with cooked.

Vitamin E-- this is also important to supplement with when feeding fish oils. The body needs vitamin E to absorb these oils, and so the body's store of E can be depleted. We do roughly 1-2iu of E per pound, and I add that by giving 200iu every 2-3 days (my dogs range in weight from 45lbs-60lbs).

If fish oils aren't a possibility, there are plants that contain these same fatty acids. They are not as bioavailable or as conveniently packaged together as they are in fish oils. The correct ratio depends on who you talk to, and ranges from 5:1 to 20:1 (omega3:omega6). This is not something I've had to really confront, but now will need to because of Andre. It's clear that he is not tolerating the salmon oil, and so I will be trying flax, perhaps with some other oils or meals. Which brings me to my next supplements...

Multipurpose Supplements
When I began feeding raw, I rotated between 2 different blends: Missing Link (we will try the vegetarian blend with Dre) and Solid Gold Seameal.

Missing Link is mostly good for getting those omega 3/6/9s and some other vitamins and minerals, and it uses a more "whole food" approach-- in other words, giving them what they need without adding lots of synthetic vitamins.

The Seameal is great for probiotic help and for trace minerals-- lots of little things they might not be getting elsewhere.

I would rotate between these 2 brands. And if I wasn't able to add a lot of variety immediately, I'd probably also add in a multivitamin. This may become necessary for Andre, as well, so I'll touch on that if we have to make some decisions that direction.

Once I got more variety going, and was adding in more fish for the omegas, I switched to adding...

Kelp
Kelp is great for so many things. It has all those great trace minerals. We have found that it helps with allergies and digestion. It's also good for glandular health. That said, you should be careful with dosing. Because kelp can be high in iodine (and that iodine level is certainly not uniform for all brands of kelp), adding it to a commercial diet can be problematic in regards to the thyroid. Dr. Jean Dodds has written a great book about canine hypothyroidism and is worth a read on this topic. Since we aren't feeding a primarily commercial diet, we add it to the food, approximately 1/2tsp a day. I buy it in bulk at the co-op. Because it is such a fine powder, it lasts a long time, and even at $15/lb, it's not very expensive on a daily basis.

We have also been taking some of the Pet Kelp line of blends for a spin. River has been taking the Joint and Bone blend, and Andre has been getting the Wellness with blueberries. I can't say for sure whether they are helping or not, but the price point is good and so it's been worth a try. I'll report after we use them for a while longer.


**Those are the ones that I personally see as truly essential. They are the ones that I provide to really make up for what the diet is missing. But there are several things that I add on a case-by-case basis or as "bonus."**


Coconut Oil
We love coconut oil. It's such a great addition to their diet. It has helped with allergies tremendously and has improved their skin and coat qualities immeasurably. As I discussed before, Luna used to have a terrible flea allergy, and really is allergic to everything. She now has only very mild reactions to bites and her allergic reactions clear up very quickly, and usually without the use of antibiotics, etc.

And the better their coat and skin quality, the less frequently we treat for fleas. Fleas don't really like healthy skin; broken skin is easier to infiltrate, so the reduction in fleas was a nice surprising bonus for us.

It's good for digestion, immunity, skin; it can be used topically. It's a medium chain fat and so it's processed differently by the body and has no cholesterol. It's just amazing stuff.

We buy it on a subscription from Amazon. It's solid below 76ºF, a bit like the consistency of candle wax. I just start a dog off with a very small amount, maybe 1/4tsp, and slowly increase that until they are getting a small spoon of it once a day. We increase and decrease this as necessary.

Probiotics/Digestive Enzymes
We stuff Kongs with yogurt (when I have time, I prefer to make my own) and we use keffir when I need to get a dog's gut back to good (after a round of antibiotics, etc.). I have also used a variety of doggie probiotics, and I can't really endorse one over another. They seem to work about the same.

I have found that often the dog needs digestive enzymes, rather than probiotics-- In Clover Fresh Digest is the one that we've found and like. I like the company, and while the product may look pricey, we buy it cheaper on Amazon and you use very little of it per meal. It's also a very fine powder and somewhat sweet, so it tends to be pretty easy to administer. It tends to make a big difference in stool quality and flatulence. Andre gets this at every meal; the rest get it when needed, after antibiotics or when adding in a brand new protein or changing foods or they received an abundance of treats, etc...

Cranberry
My girls who are prone to UTIs get cranberry capsules. Cranberry doesn't so much cure UTIs as make it more difficult for bacteria to take hold in the bladder. Same as for people. I just use CranActin capsules, just one day. I also occasionally give d-mannose specifically.

Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM
River and Robin are the two oldest, and they get joint supplements. River gets the Pet Kelp, as well as Dasuquin with MSM; Robin gets Dasuquin, though she'd probably be fine with something a little less robust. When River's having a hard time, we increase her fish oil and MSM, as these two help with joint inflammation, as well. Nutramax, who makes Dasuquin, is also the same company that has made Cosequin for many years. Their process is supposedly better than others. The Dasuquin is much like the Cosequin, but it contains avocado soybean unsaponifiables (ASUs), which are extracts that are supposed to help with the inflammation. We've felt like it's helped better than almost any brand we've tried. But there are many other brands-- Glycoflex is another good one, and we've like the Green Dog Naturals Healthy Motion.

L-Theanine
This is one that I take, and that my girls with anxiety take. It's an amino acid that just helps to level things out. It's marketed for dogs under the name Anxitane. I buy Enzymatic Therapies for people and we all share. This is one, though, that you should talk to your vet about if you want to add it.

Bonemeal
And when we have to go a while (like more than several days) without bone-in meals, I add bonemeal to the diet to make sure they are getting all their calcium. Here's some more information on how much bonemeal to add...


So that's a long post-- and I have used other supplements at various times for various things, from incontinence to anal gland issues. I'll touch on those as I have time. But these are what we regularly feed. Again, I'd say the fish oil and kelp are the only things that we add across the board and that I feel are quite necessary; I have long considered the addition of spirulina and alfalfa and will make note of that if I do make that change. But the others serve a great purpose for us and we tailor these to each dog. One of the great things about a home-prepped diet is the ability to tailor it as we see fit. And again, just like supplements for people, you should let your vet know about these things when they are prescribing medications or diagnosing problems.

Dre's July update

Poor Dre Dog.

After trying and failing to add salmon oil, TWICE, I went back to just turkey. I've been a little lax about treats, but other than that, his diet's been pretty straightforward. He threw up bile right before the first time we tried salmon, threw up food on day 3 of that, hacked and threw up bile with the second round, and threw up yard waste yesterday. After yesterday's episode, he really didn't feel well. He moped around the house and laid on my feet.

He started to feel better when his friend
came to see what was going on.

Anyway, we decided it was time to rule out bigger problems. We are concerned that he might have a pancreatic problem. Our vet still feels like all signs point to dietary intolerance, but we want to make sure it's not something more fundamental. I want to make sure we don't keep assuming the hoofprints belong to a horse when in fact the zebras made a break from the zoo, ya know?

I didn't allow him any treats since I knew he'd be getting a blood draw and wanted to be sure he'd been fasted long enough. God bless, he was not happy. I usually use vet visits as training opportunities. So when we showed up there and he got NO TREATS-- not form me, not from the front desk, not from the techs, not from the doc, AND HE COULD SEE THEM RIGHT THERE-- he wasn't thrilled. He barked.  A lot.

But he was nice and still and quiet for his draw, which is really what counts. His sample will be sent to Texas A&M's lab for EPI testing. The good news is that he still seems to be handling raw well. I hope he continues to do so.

I'll report back when we have results...

The Nitty Gritty: Where to shop

I wish I could give the dogs all the variety in the world, all organic, all humanely-raised, all fresh, all hormone free... I wish I could feed myself only those things.

When I began this project, I felt a bit like I was only going to do it if I could do it perfectly.

But that's unrealistic. In my opinion, feeding them fresh human grade foods would be better than feeding them processed dry dog foods. If my only choices for my breakfast were "high quality" powdered eggs, or fresh non-organic eggs, well, I'd choose the fresh.

That said, I am always looking for more variety, better sources, higher quality, etc. But I'm not going to feed the dogs something I'm not happy with while I wait for the absolute perfect source to come along, because it may never happen. The fresher it is then the more I know about its origins, and that is always better, in my opinion.

And if you can't find a wide variety of organ meats, as many people can't, I would still do it. We didn't have that wide variety in the beginning. We fed some kibble meals, and we added more vegetables and supplements (like a multivitamin), more eggs. We didn't forego feeding the fresh foods; we made concessions where necessary and continued to look for more sources.

That said, these are the some places to start your shopping spree:

There's that reduced for quick sale
sticker. If it's on sale, and it's a good
price, I'll take it.

The Grocery Store
Yep. The grocery store. My husband now knows whenever we go grocery shopping, we have to make a pass by the meat case, even if we don't need anything, to keep an eye out for the yellow, "reduced for quick sale" sticker. We get pork and beef cuts very cheaply this way, and chicken parts-- bone-in thighs and drumsticks, hearts and gizzards, and livers are the most common items on sale. Sometimes we come across a nice deal on organic chicken or turkey. I'm lucky to have the freezer space to buy anything I see and throw it in the freezer to process later.

When we began making raw, we were buying our chicken leg quarters from the grocery. WalMart here sells bags of leg quarters for $0.59/lb. They aren't the highest quality, as you can imagine, and after removing the large sections of loose skin and removable fat, it's more like $0.75-0.80/lb.

To save processing time, I started buying pre-separated thighs and drumsticks. These had less fat and skin, so the processing time was less, and they were of a higher quality. I could usually get these for around $1/lb, sometimes on sale for $0.88/lb.

I have been told that many people are able to buy cases of certain cuts through the grocery butcher. I've never tried this, as I have a different source for that kind of thing, but it's always worth asking. Most come in 40lb cases, and it's often things that aren't as popular: hearts alone, beef hearts, gizzards, necks, backs, etc. It's always worth asking. Always. 

**One thing to pay attention to when buying human-grade meats is to be aware of "enhancements" and sodium. The less enhancement the better, and I was always told to keep the sodium as close to less than 100mg/4oz as possible. I'll try to find a source on that number...**

Specialty Grocers
Organ meats are hard to come by in most "regular" grocery stores. But we are lucky to have large Asian and Hispanic populations here, and if you're lucky, too, these are great places to find some of these things. So it's worth checking your local carniceria or Asian market.

Cryovacc'd cuts form abattoir, pork
from the grocery store, grinds from
Texas Tripe. It's a mixed bag.

Abattoirs/Butchers
A butcher is a pretty obvious option... But many "butchers" are really just meat stores. And they may be able to order things by the case for you, but the places that actually slaughter and process are the ones to look for. Ask around-- where do the local hunters take their deer for processing? Where do local livestock (especially the small-scale) farmers have their meat processed?

Our local abattoir keeps a large freezer just for cryovacc'd organ and other meats for people like me :) -- kidneys, sweetbreads, testicles, liver, heart, tongue, beef tips. But I can also call them on the days that they slaughter and ask them to hold specific organs for me. I can call and they will bag up lungs, kidney, liver and heart all still connected, and sell it to me for $10. This requires some work on my part, but saves me some money and saves them the trouble of individually trimming and packing. It's a win-win.

Also, ask them what they do with any trim. Tell them what you're doing, what kinds of things you feed, let them know how much elbow grease you're willing to put in (if any), and see what they can do for you. It's always worth asking.

Local Farmers/Farmers Markets
This can definitely be a win-win situation and a phenomenal way to get higher quality sources at a reasonable price.

Who locally sells free-range chicken? Grass-fed beef? Pasture-raised pigs? Other livestock and poultry-- goats, pheasant, turkey, rabbit, lamb?

Give those farmers a call or an email. Explain what you do-- that you're feeding your dogs raw and you're looking for new variety, specifically cuts that might otherwise be going to waste. Things like organ meats that are harder or impossible for them to sell, or things like chicken frames (these are what's left after the legs and breast have been removed from the bird; it's a lot of meat and bone, usually includes the back and neck, and you can add it to other boneless meat to get that 80/10/10 ratio-- and since it's something that they're not going to be selling at the market at a huge premium, they might be willing to sell it for cheap). We now have a couple of local farmers who have their leftover chicken parts-- frames, legs, backs, necks, liver, heart, etc-- ground up and packaged for raw feeders. One has offered to have the abattoir bag up all the leftovers of his livestock for me to buy and pick up. These are humanely and naturally raised animals-- much better quality than I could otherwise afford. But again, it's a win-win. It's always worth asking.

This is even more mixed bag. A box of
beef spleen, cases of hearts and gizzards,
ground packs of chicken frames, blends
including organs, blends from the farmers
market. We buy a pretty wide range
these days

Co-Ops and Similar Group Buying
We don't live in a big enough urban area for utilizing a co-op. DogAware has a list of co-ops by state. This is a way for large groups of people to buy at bulk prices and split the product into smaller quantities.

We HAVE, however, been lucky enough to be able to buy from Texas Tripe. There are other companies like this, you just have to look for them. His prices are worth driving to a drop-off location for us. This is a bit like a co-op. This company deals mainly in grass-fed beef and buys in bulk from local poultry processing facilities and from local hunters. I can buy in bulk, myself (40lb cases of hearts or gizzards, 50lb blocks of chicken frames, 20lb blocks of beef trim, etc.), or I can pay a bit more for him to have already ground and packaged these things; or I can pay a little MORE for him to have already ground and portioned the various components into blends that include meat and organ, and sometimes bone. It's a way for me to buy in bulk, like a co-op, or a less expensive way to buy pre-packaged raw and still have the flexibility to build your own meals as you need to. This is how we've been buying much of our raw for a while now, and I'll talk about what we do with these products later. It's slightly more expensive than grinding my own leg quarters, but I've been shorter on time than money lately, and it's still a great deal and cheaper than buying pre-packaged commercially produced raw.

Other Options
I have one friend who buys much of her organ meats from the local butcher's college. Some people I know drive directly to some of the processors that Texas Tripe buys from. All my friends know not to throw out freezer burned meats. Once again: It's always worth asking. 

Ask everyone and anyone who eats and buys meat. Friends. Hunters. Butchers. And if you are limited to the grocery store, it is still totally doable. Don't be discouraged. But if you can put in a little extra effort, you can find wonderful resources-- higher quality, more variety-- just ask around. And tell people what you're doing.  I've found that most people think it's weird, but kind of neat and will offer their leftover meats and trims and leftovers from hunting. Just let people know.

The Nitty Gritty: Content and clarity

Edited for Clarity:
I really wanted to first clarify that I said in the last post on this topic that we don't do a lot of veggies. We've increased the variety of organ meat that we use, and decreased the amount of veggies. However, we've also increased the amount of green tripe that they get. Tripe is just the contents and lining of the stomach of ruminants, like cattle. Lots of mid-digestion grass and all the good digestive assisting qualities that the fermentation process adds. This is not the same as tripe that you find in the grocery store, which has been washed and bleached, and essentially stripped of most of its beneficial qualities. And this also makes it harder to find. But if you find it, you're lucky. It smells like shit, literally, but it's good for them, and they love it.

This is a boneless meal of cut up chicken thighs, perhaps
some liver that I see in there, canned pumpkin, and kelp.

How much?

The rule of thumb-- and this was pretty standard across resources-- was to begin by feeding 2-3% of their ideal body weight per day, for an adult dog, and then adjust as needed. We just watched for weight gain and loss and went from there. We started River off at 2%, but she's older and less active; she now eats more like 1.5%. Luna, on the other hand, has a metabolism I'd ill for. When she is very active, she eats 4% or more. Because she stays very lean, and has a very short coat, it's easy to see when she's losing and gaining. So although River weighs the most, she eats the least. It all depends on the dog.

The RMBs

As I mentioned, we felt comfortable with the 10/10/80 formula. But how to achieve that? Oh, just do ~60% RMBs and you're good, right?

...But what counts as an RMB? And aren't some bonier than others? And are you sure they can eat bones? And what kind of bones?

See? Overwhelming.

Through the Yahoo raw feeders' group, I found out about this website. The USDA has a database that you can use to determine the percentage of bone in the RMBs that you feed. To find that information, you'll find your cut, and then click on the "full report" link. You'll see a percentage listed as "refuse" and a description of what that "refuse" is (ie, bone).

It seems that most people feed chicken RMBs, at least to start with. Some also feed rib bones, necks bones-- other non-weight bearing bones of larger animals. Chicken bones are all pretty soft. But the weight bearing bones of large livestock are too hard and dense for most dogs to be edible. They can still be used as recreational bones, but they certainly weren't going to go through my consumer model grinder. Chicken and rabbit will go through a mid-range home grinder well, depending on the model, and they are easy for the dogs to crunch and to digest.

Chicken leg quarters are a favorite starter, and they are listed as 27% bone on the USDA site. This isn't a foolproof number, so don't get bogged down by that. But by making them approximately half of the dogs' meals, we're giving them a roughly 13% bone content. This is technically a bit high, but I just watched their stool for signs of white, too-dry stool or mild constipation. The leg quarters we were using were pretty meaty, so they may have been less bony than the USDA would suggest.

So depending on what RMB you choose, you can visit the USDA site, find it's % and do a little algebra to find out how much you need per day.

The heart and tongue are muscles; the kidney and
sweetbreads are secreting organs. Kidneys have a good
deal of fat around and inside them. The fat on the outside
is what's known as suet. 

Muscle or Organ??

Which one is it?? The heart is an organ right? Not when you're talking about raw feeding. It's a muscle-- a rich muscle, and one that you'll want to ease most dogs into (though mine can eat whole meals of heart now), but it's a muscle. Gizzards-- muscle. Tongue-- muscle. Lung-- eh. Kinda both? It's best if you can find a secreting organ to make up the organ portion of the meals. Don't get me wrong; all the things listed above are great for variety, and certainly better than nothing in my opinion. But ideally, you want things like kidney, sweetbreads (thymus), spleen, liver, etc. Secreting organs.

The Rest

For the boneless portion, we fed as wide a variety as possible. At first, this was what we could get at the store, and on sale. Pork (I freeze pork for 2-3 weeks to be on the safe side), loins, sirloins, center cuts, picnic roasts, all mostly on sale; whole cuts of beef from the grocery store (roasts, steaks, etc.) and ground beef from our local abattoir where I had a better idea of the quality and age of the meat; and other cuts of chicken like boneless thighs, breasts, tenders, gizzards and hearts; turkey breasts. Eventually we added beef and pork hearts and tongues and trim from butchers.

For the organ portion, we began with liver (beef and chicken) and some eggs. We were eventually able to start adding kidneys, sweetbreads, along with the liver, spleen, pancreas, etc.

Because liver deals with nutrients that are delicately balanced and that are important not to get in too high quantities (like zinc and copper), my understanding is that liver should be kept at roughly half of the organ allotment (ie, 5%). We have done this by giving it daily with other organs or by alternating days and weeks.

As for the fish, because we were feeding whole body fish, bones included, we did not supplement these days with organ or extra calcium. And because we added cottage cheese, veggies, and eggs to those meals, even though they had bones I didn't really worry about throwing my numbers off.

-------

This has changed over the years because of a change in our supplier, but it's a way to get started with what you can find at the grocery store without it costing a fortune.

The poop factor

Before I forget to point this out... Don't worry. This post isn't illustrated. (though, maybe an illustrated poop guide would be a good idea... ;-) )

Because of Andre's issues, I always make sure he has a bowel movement in the mornings before I leave the house. When he went this morning, it was... well... a lot. And it was, er... moist. And really, really stinky. I mean, it was voluminous. That's the only way I can describe it.

I was shocked. Until I remembered the insane number of store-bought, non-grain-free treats that he ate this weekend. He went to the farmers market with me. He went to Petco with me. He rode in the car. We trained in the yard. And I lazily didn't boil any turkey. So he got bagged treats.

And this reminded me of one of the biggest reasons that I love raw. Aside from all the health benefits we see in our dogs, their poop is spectacular. I mean really.

It is small-- more nutrient dense food, more digestible, more useable means less waste.

It is dry and quite firm. Again, there's just not a lot of waste and there's not a lot of fiber sucking up moisture. If it's too dry or too firm, it's easy to add extra organ meat or add some canned pumpkin or other veggies, or reduce the amount of bone to help things along.

And it doesn't stink. If you don't clean up after a kibble-fed dog right away, especially when it's 95 degrees in the shade, the yard gets pretty unbearable pretty quickly. You might also find yourself stepping in it (ew) days later and tracking it everywhere. Raw fed dogs have very low odor bowel movements, and because they're dry and small, they dry up to hard rock then crumbled up status fairly immediately. There's no tracking poop everywhere if you can't clean it up right away. There have been times that I've gone into the yard to catch up on clean up, and can't find anything to pick up.

It's a glorious world of poop. Every time I've had a kibble-fed dog, I'm reminded of just how good we have it...

The Nitty Gritty: Basic decisions

So I read, and read, and read, and read...

I asked questions on every forum I belonged to...

I read every sticky that related to dog food on every other dog forum I came across...

I visited every grocery and club store, called every chicken-only store (we have a lot of those in Arkansas), called every butcher and abattoir...

I culled all this new information, waded through the various options, and decided on a plan forward.

It's changed quite a bit, but here's what we landed on to begin with...

The Schedule
At the time, I was still afraid of not giving them the right balance. I was also concerned that any place we boarded them for vacation wouldn't be willing to feed raw. So we decided to split the difference, and do half raw, half kibble. They got kibble in the morning and raw in the evening. Many people will tell you it's bad to mix kibble and raw in the same meal because of the different digestion rates, increasing risk for bloat. I don't know if this is true or not, but why risk it?

I started for a week or more giving only boneless chicken thighs with no supplements to try and acclimate their tummies to it. The important thing is to move slowly, adding in new proteins, new supplements, and new organs, a bit at a time so as not to cause tummy upset. Some dogs take to it right away and some take a number of weeks to transition.

We also made the switch cold turkey with the three girls; just, one day, gave them a raw meal. That was that. No one had problems, and in fact, almost all the dogs' stools firmed up immediately. It was like their intestines were saying, "What took you so long!?!" When switching Andre, because he has such a sensitive system, I switched him slowly from kibble to cooked meat, and then slowly from cooked to raw. That's another way of going about it if you have a sensitive soul and don't want to mix kibble and raw.

The vast majority of sources suggested roughly 50-65% of the meal be raw meaty bones, RMBs-- meaning bones with a lot of meat on them-- and the rest boneless meat and organs. So we chose to do 4 meals per week of RMBs and 3 meals of organ and boneless. When we switched to all raw, we chose to feed an RMB meal in the mornings and a boneless/organ meal in the evenings. We now do what they call a "Frankenprey" model, where we have a mix of many things, from many protein sources, in each meal. 

**One important thing that nearly every source stressed is that this is a diet emphasizing balance over time. No need to cram everything in every meal; it's not how we eat, it's not how any animal eats, it's just not necessary. Try to be as balanced as possible over small spans of time (days/weeks-- not months).**

The Mix

The diet we chose is based on a 10/10/80% ratio-- 10%bone/10%organ/80%meat, give or take (again, balance over time). I sometimes give them more bone than that. 

For a long time, they got a ground chicken leg quarter/liver meal in the morning and a boneless/other organ meal in the evening. 

One meal every week to 10 days, they also got a mix of canned salmon or mackerel, cottage cheese and eggs. Eggs are best served soft-boiled, but raw is fine if it's not all the time, in large quantities. 

Especially in the beginning, when I didn't have the variety of organ meats that I do now, I liked for them to get some veggies for fiber and filler and for the nutrients they weren't otherwise getting. I would either mix one green and one root/squash, or alternate weekly. I lightly cooked them, ran them through the food processor and put them in muffin tins and froze for easy use later. 

Now that we do the Frankenprey, I usually use a mix of very bony grind, boneless meat and organs in each meal.

To Grind or Not To Grind
Many people will tell you that NOT grinding is the only way to REALLY do raw right. And some dogs handle whole RMBs very well. River does. I give River a chicken neck-- a little ol' chicken neck for my 60lb lab-- and she delicately crunches and chews, never guarding it from anyone or hiding it under the couches. Allowing them to really chew, rip, and shred their meals has the bonus of mechanically cleaning their teeth and giving them a mental workout, as well.

However, I'm terrified of them choking. Little miss 45lb Luna swallows chicken backs WHOLE. Silently. In one gulp. I'm pretty sure Andre would, too. No idea how she'd handle larger pieces, but I don't entirely trust her judgement. I do know people who have had to pull a stuck piece out of a choking dog.

I am also a germophobe, to a small degree. I could feed them in their crates, but then I have to remove the bedding and spray everything down. I tried giving Robin a bone-in thigh, and she picked it up out of the bowl, set it next to the bowl very suspiciously, ate everything else, then looked at me sideways while she ran out of the room with it to the couch...

Which brings me to the other problem I, personally, have with whole prey feeding. It wasn't easy getting that back from Robin while she dragged chicken juices all over the place. She resource guards on a occasion. Not terribly, but enough that I'm not thrilled with the idea. And Luna resource guards from the other dogs. She already doesn't want them near her crate; I didn't want to add one more high value thing to the mix. Our house at the time was tiny.

So if you've got a chewer, live in a temperate climate where they can eat outside all the time (I didn't have time to police that situation), or are cool with cleaning the crate all the time, or can teach them to eat on a mat, etc., be my guest. I'm too much of a worrier/germophobe/crunched-for-time-with-an-hour-long-commute-in-the-morning to do any of that. So we grind. I'll do a post on all our equipment later...

To Supplement or Not to Supplement
Again, you'll find people who sit on both sides of that fence.

**One other thing that most everyone will point out is that variety is key. Variety, variety, variety. Variety in proteins, in cuts, in organs, in sourcing, in everything. Every cut from every animal offers something different, and so the more variety you can lend, the less (theoretically) you should need to supplement.**

As I began, liver was about the only organ I could reliably get, and cost dictated that chicken made up the bulk of their meals. So I added in the veggies and supplemented, alternating between a couple of different blends. One was a seaweed based blend, offering trace minerals: Solid Gold Seameal. Another was a general flax based blend: Missing Link. Nearly every source will also suggest, even if they are opposed to supplementing for the most part, that you add a source for omegas, usually fish oil. This can be in the form of salmon oil or in whole body fish fed regularly, or flax if they can't tolerate fish oils. We've altered this some, but this was the basic starting point.
____________

So those were our primary decisions. A basic formulary, a basic RMB, a schedule, a consistency, and supplements. Again, remember, these aren't the only way to go. Its what we decided was going to work best for us at the time, and as I've hinted at here, as our living situations, finances and sourcing have all changed, our methods have changed. But I wouldn't hesitate to go back to the way we began if that is what would suit us best for whatever is going on.

Rock the boat: Attempt 2

Isn't going so well...

Andre has stabilized well over the last week. So I decided to try the salmon oil again. Two nights ago I added it back to his meals.

Maybe I'm imagining it, but he seems to be trying to eat more crap in the yard and seems to be more ravenous in general. I was going to continue and see what happens...

Until this evening. He was just lying here in bed and started heaving like he would throw up. He didn't, but that's not a good sign. It's been on day 3 or 4 each time I try to do something new. Could also have been related to having had several biscuits, but I doubt it. 

I'm wondering how he'd handle the addition of whole fish to his meals once or twice a week. Since he does ok for a few days with the salmon oil and then he has trouble, as though it has built up in his system-- or like his stomach can only work that hard for so many days in a row, perhaps giving him fish once or twice a week, as we do with the other dogs, would be a better option...

He might get to sleep out of the crate tonight in case he's sick.

Think he's scamming me?