Back to the grind

Last night I got back to the grinder.

I chopped up 30lbs of pork hearts (which usually just means splitting them in half) and skinned 5lbs of leg quarters with my new poultry shears from Oxo. I don't think I like the a s much as the Henckels, but if they last longer, then I really can't complain. 

Anyway, prep, grind, packing, labeling, and cleaning the grinder took around an hour and a half. I'm thrilled.

This was the first foray into bones for this machine. Here is the first leg quarter I sent down the chute. All I did was skin it and drop it in. It was glorious.

With my STX, I had to cut a quarter into 3-5 pieces. The only cutting I did on any of these quarters was a notch in between the back and bottom of the thigh on some of them, otherwise, the larger backs got stuck perpendicular at the mouth of the chute. 

So why, you ask, was my hand covering up the output? Let me tell you. When I watched videos of other people using these grinders, they all had their kitchens covered in plastic. I could not figure out what that was about. I've been grinding with my middle of the road grinder for years and I've never needed to plasticize the room.

Yesterday I learned. This thing has so much power, if the meat isn't sufficiently cold (read: almost frozen) or if it backs up and then catches up with itself, it shoots meat out in a most impressive arc. Can you see the splatter on the wall of my bucket?

Now see where River is standing? She's standing there because that's how far it sprayed. She was obviously more than happy to assist with clean-up.

Regardless, I am beyond happy with this thing. The real test will be when I finally do the 40lbs of thighs that are in the freezer.... As it is, I'm running out of containers.

Woman Meets Machine

Oh yes. The Weston #22. I ordered it.

And it arrived. All 66lbs of it. It weighs more than Dre, who is modeling it for you here.

Today, I finally took it for an light first run.

I spent around 15-20 minutes quartering some beef hearts (15lbs), kidneys (6lbs), a tongue (2lbs) and a pork sirloin (2lbs).

Here's the hearts. I won't play the entire video, but you can see how quickly it works.

That amount of food took me less than 10 minutes. LESS THAN 10 MINUTES.

Then the cleanup. It was glorious. Roughly 15 minutes, and that will get quicker over time.

Hardly anything left on the auger, though a thin film of suet was evident.

I am totally in love. I'll run some bones through it soon. So quiet. So simple.

So glorious.

The Nitty Gritty: The Grinder

As I've talked about before, I've chosen to grind. Robin wants to carry her whole pieces away and will resource guard them from me; Luna gulps any and everything... I don't have a lot of time in the mornings to let them work on their breakfasts. And now, with Andre, it's even more important for him.

Just a quick update on him, we decided that even though he does not have EPI, he lives with many of the same complications, so we will feed him with that in mind. He already takes a plant-based enzyme (EPI dogs generally get a porcine based enzyme) and we are adding better probiotics and maintaining the lowest bone content we can get away with, as well as making it easily digestible. Grinding helps us control the bone content, gives him a head start on the digestion, and makes adding in his various supplements easier. So far so good. A separate post on that forthcoming.

So grinders!

Entry level

I would think it would go without saying that using a manual grinder is a nightmare. But I've seen an awful lot of people who want to try...

The $150-200 starter grinder that most folks start out with can usually handle chicken bones, some can handle rabbit. Turkey bones, however, or very hard  and very dense. I don't suggest putting those in these smaller units...

For whatever reason, I did not buy the usual grinder that most raw feeder tout, the Tasin TS108. You can read more about that grinder and a comparison of the pricier Weston #12 at http://catinfo.org. 

Instead, I bought the STX Turboforce 3000. 

 

The great thing about the STX is the warranty. Many grinders a this price point void the warranty if they are used to grind bones. STX, though, will repair or replace for any reason whatsoever for 1 year. That includes being an idiot and putting turkey bones down the chute. Not too long after I got it, I tried to grind turkey wings and the unit just died. It made horrible noises. I completely killed it. The company took it back, fixed it, and then sent it back to me, followed by a phone call giving me tips for using it to grind bones. They were prompt and true to their word. I was very pleased with them and the grinder. It has held up for many hundreds of pounds of chicken leg quarters and it is still kicking.

Pros: 

Affordable

Nice size-- easy to store

Fairly easy to clean

Awesome warranty and customer service

It's a workhorse

Has a reverse button if things get stuck

Fine for 1-2 dogs

Cons:

Chicken is about the extent of what it can handle

Chute is small, about 2" so you have to cut pieces pretty small; I cut leg quarters into 3-5 pieces. Even thighs need to be cut into 2 pieces, usually.

Too slow-going for more than 2 dogs

Bigger and Better?

I've been buying a lot of pre ground food, but I'm ready to go back to grinding my own for at least some of their meals. I'm trying to save money and I'd love to have a grinder that can handle turkey for Andre's food. Also, one of the main reasons I don't like to grind is how much time it sucks out of my life grinding for this many dogs. When it was just River and Robin, it was fine. But add Luna to the mix and it almost doubled my work. Not to mention adding Dre...

I'm pretty sure I'll be going with a Weston #22. 

It's commercial grade, has a nearly three inch chute, and a more powerful motor. Reports are that it's pretty quiet. I've found a few reports of it handling turkey, mainly necks. 

Best of all, I just got email confirmation from the company that their #22 and #32 models are rated for poultry bones, meaning it will not void the warranty. Their response was really prompt, too. I emailed late yesterday evening, and there was a response at 7 this morning.

I'm waiting to hear from our usual meat supplier about the cost for ground turkey legs by themselves  and for bone-in whole pieces to make sure it's worth spending the money and the TIME before I take the plunge.

Pros:

Power--meaning harder bones  and faster grind time

Bigger chute, so less chopping

Stainless steel making it easier to wash

Warranty and customer service

Might even make feeding raw to the cats worthwhile...

Cons:

Price-- runs around $550, though I may have found it cheaper; but if I can make Dre's food, it will pay for itself quickly. 

Size-- it will have to stay out or on my rolling cart all the time. It's super heavy. 

I'll probably make a decision today or tomorrow. And then I'll post about the grinding process and other equipment...

A dog, a grinder, a plan

Apologies for abandoning the blog. Life's been a little nutty. Vacation, hypothyroid, moving... Just... a lot.

When we all try very hard, these three can be such
patient little customers. They want to know, though,
why I'm taking pictures and not finishing dinner. 

My next post was going to be about equipment, and I'm actually glad I've held off. We are probably going back to grinding at least some of the meals. I'd love to get out of debt, and while recently time had been more valuable than money, that's changing. :) I got a great deal on buying 100lbs of a pre-made grind (beef trim, liver and tripe with chicken frames, hearts and liver) for $1.65/lb. I can use this for morning meals when I'm in a hurry. Our evening meals can be chicken thighs and other organs, hearts and gizzards. This should get us to around $1.30/lb. If I go back to chicken leg quarters, I can get it closer to ~$1.10/lb if I need to cut costs even further.

And Andre's Bravo is now $3/lb, even when I buy with a case discount, so I'm revisiting the prospect of making his food. Even a mid-range home grinder will not handle turkey, so we'll have to purchase a commercial grinder to do that, and I'll go through our decision process on that. I may get one anyway to up the speed on processing day-- if I can make Andre's food by buying lots of Thanksgiving turkeys and grinding them myself, it will pay for itself quickly. If I use it to do a lot of grinding with the chicken thighs/legs, it will pay for itself, too, just less quickly. I love the grinder we have and it was perfectly reasonable when I was grinding for 2 dogs. Three or even four dogs, and using a grinder that small and slow, means I never want to do it and it's easier for me to be lazy.

We've also discovered that Luna has some thyroid issues, and I am still working out what I need to be doing for her dietarily-- will post on that sometime soon, too.

Let me begin by saying that Andre is 60+lbs-- up from a low of 41 or 42. He's energetic, happy, and he's had only mild flare-ups in recent months. Nothing major at all. And he starts intermediate obedience classes in January. We've done his basics at home, but it's time for him to work around new people and dogs. And learn not to obsess over toys.

Park is Hell. All those tennis balls
behind the fence...

He couldn't handle the salmon oil for his omegas, so he gets Missing Link vegetarian formula, which is primarily flaxseed plus a little kelp. He's tolerating that very, very well.

He also can tolerate coconut oil well.

My first step here is to see if Andre can handle grocery store turkey, including dark meat. I bought some ground turkey necks from our supplier and a tray of turkey drumsticks. Both meals on Sunday and Monday morning, he had 2 ounces of his 10 replaced with 25% necks and 75% drumstick meat cut up with poultry shears. Tonight he got 4 ounces replaced; tomorrow morning I'll give him a break and do all Bravo. If we can get to 50-75% of his meals homemade, we'll be in great shape. I'll need to add in some veggies.

Next step will be to try some different (not chicken) proteins. Turkey livers/hearts/gizzards are hard to find in bulk. So I'll try beef and pork hearts and livers, kidneys, sweetbreads and see if he can handle the organ meats from them. Our supplier also makes a turkey drumstick/pork liver blend at $2/lb that we could perhaps try for his morning meals.

We can't sustainably pay these prices for Andre's food if it's going to stay more than twice as much as the others'. That said, it's still cheaper and easier than having him constantly having problems, having surgical procedures, constantly trying new foods... We'll keep going til we find something more workable. Hopefully that will be soon...

The Nitty Gritty: Basic decisions

So I read, and read, and read, and read...

I asked questions on every forum I belonged to...

I read every sticky that related to dog food on every other dog forum I came across...

I visited every grocery and club store, called every chicken-only store (we have a lot of those in Arkansas), called every butcher and abattoir...

I culled all this new information, waded through the various options, and decided on a plan forward.

It's changed quite a bit, but here's what we landed on to begin with...

The Schedule
At the time, I was still afraid of not giving them the right balance. I was also concerned that any place we boarded them for vacation wouldn't be willing to feed raw. So we decided to split the difference, and do half raw, half kibble. They got kibble in the morning and raw in the evening. Many people will tell you it's bad to mix kibble and raw in the same meal because of the different digestion rates, increasing risk for bloat. I don't know if this is true or not, but why risk it?

I started for a week or more giving only boneless chicken thighs with no supplements to try and acclimate their tummies to it. The important thing is to move slowly, adding in new proteins, new supplements, and new organs, a bit at a time so as not to cause tummy upset. Some dogs take to it right away and some take a number of weeks to transition.

We also made the switch cold turkey with the three girls; just, one day, gave them a raw meal. That was that. No one had problems, and in fact, almost all the dogs' stools firmed up immediately. It was like their intestines were saying, "What took you so long!?!" When switching Andre, because he has such a sensitive system, I switched him slowly from kibble to cooked meat, and then slowly from cooked to raw. That's another way of going about it if you have a sensitive soul and don't want to mix kibble and raw.

The vast majority of sources suggested roughly 50-65% of the meal be raw meaty bones, RMBs-- meaning bones with a lot of meat on them-- and the rest boneless meat and organs. So we chose to do 4 meals per week of RMBs and 3 meals of organ and boneless. When we switched to all raw, we chose to feed an RMB meal in the mornings and a boneless/organ meal in the evenings. We now do what they call a "Frankenprey" model, where we have a mix of many things, from many protein sources, in each meal. 

**One important thing that nearly every source stressed is that this is a diet emphasizing balance over time. No need to cram everything in every meal; it's not how we eat, it's not how any animal eats, it's just not necessary. Try to be as balanced as possible over small spans of time (days/weeks-- not months).**

The Mix

The diet we chose is based on a 10/10/80% ratio-- 10%bone/10%organ/80%meat, give or take (again, balance over time). I sometimes give them more bone than that. 

For a long time, they got a ground chicken leg quarter/liver meal in the morning and a boneless/other organ meal in the evening. 

One meal every week to 10 days, they also got a mix of canned salmon or mackerel, cottage cheese and eggs. Eggs are best served soft-boiled, but raw is fine if it's not all the time, in large quantities. 

Especially in the beginning, when I didn't have the variety of organ meats that I do now, I liked for them to get some veggies for fiber and filler and for the nutrients they weren't otherwise getting. I would either mix one green and one root/squash, or alternate weekly. I lightly cooked them, ran them through the food processor and put them in muffin tins and froze for easy use later. 

Now that we do the Frankenprey, I usually use a mix of very bony grind, boneless meat and organs in each meal.

To Grind or Not To Grind
Many people will tell you that NOT grinding is the only way to REALLY do raw right. And some dogs handle whole RMBs very well. River does. I give River a chicken neck-- a little ol' chicken neck for my 60lb lab-- and she delicately crunches and chews, never guarding it from anyone or hiding it under the couches. Allowing them to really chew, rip, and shred their meals has the bonus of mechanically cleaning their teeth and giving them a mental workout, as well.

However, I'm terrified of them choking. Little miss 45lb Luna swallows chicken backs WHOLE. Silently. In one gulp. I'm pretty sure Andre would, too. No idea how she'd handle larger pieces, but I don't entirely trust her judgement. I do know people who have had to pull a stuck piece out of a choking dog.

I am also a germophobe, to a small degree. I could feed them in their crates, but then I have to remove the bedding and spray everything down. I tried giving Robin a bone-in thigh, and she picked it up out of the bowl, set it next to the bowl very suspiciously, ate everything else, then looked at me sideways while she ran out of the room with it to the couch...

Which brings me to the other problem I, personally, have with whole prey feeding. It wasn't easy getting that back from Robin while she dragged chicken juices all over the place. She resource guards on a occasion. Not terribly, but enough that I'm not thrilled with the idea. And Luna resource guards from the other dogs. She already doesn't want them near her crate; I didn't want to add one more high value thing to the mix. Our house at the time was tiny.

So if you've got a chewer, live in a temperate climate where they can eat outside all the time (I didn't have time to police that situation), or are cool with cleaning the crate all the time, or can teach them to eat on a mat, etc., be my guest. I'm too much of a worrier/germophobe/crunched-for-time-with-an-hour-long-commute-in-the-morning to do any of that. So we grind. I'll do a post on all our equipment later...

To Supplement or Not to Supplement
Again, you'll find people who sit on both sides of that fence.

**One other thing that most everyone will point out is that variety is key. Variety, variety, variety. Variety in proteins, in cuts, in organs, in sourcing, in everything. Every cut from every animal offers something different, and so the more variety you can lend, the less (theoretically) you should need to supplement.**

As I began, liver was about the only organ I could reliably get, and cost dictated that chicken made up the bulk of their meals. So I added in the veggies and supplemented, alternating between a couple of different blends. One was a seaweed based blend, offering trace minerals: Solid Gold Seameal. Another was a general flax based blend: Missing Link. Nearly every source will also suggest, even if they are opposed to supplementing for the most part, that you add a source for omegas, usually fish oil. This can be in the form of salmon oil or in whole body fish fed regularly, or flax if they can't tolerate fish oils. We've altered this some, but this was the basic starting point.
____________

So those were our primary decisions. A basic formulary, a basic RMB, a schedule, a consistency, and supplements. Again, remember, these aren't the only way to go. Its what we decided was going to work best for us at the time, and as I've hinted at here, as our living situations, finances and sourcing have all changed, our methods have changed. But I wouldn't hesitate to go back to the way we began if that is what would suit us best for whatever is going on.